i see a pattern here,

i appreciate the way you break down my response to throuly reply to my comments… but there’s also a danger in that,

which is misunderstanding.. therefore instead of looking at things by sentence by sentence, or paragraph by paragraph, we need to reflect upon the whole body of the writing in order to understand the point. i believe that this is the greatest mistake we all do as we read the bible.

with that being said, let me be more clear in regards to our response being the same way as us being persecuted vs. others.

i did not mean that when we see someone we love being persecuted, we sit there and do nothing.. by no means… but as i mentioned in the previous comment in regards to Jesus’ example of being persecuted along side of us, we need to follow his footsteps in regards to stepping in the situations and offer ourselves to be sacrificed for the ones we love just as Jesus did…

it can look more like the example i have used in the previous comment (in regards to my friend stepping in front of a gunman b/c his friend’s life was threatened.)

Also by using that one incident regarding Jesus and the merchants in the temple cannot justify your view of Christ as being violent.

Again, we need to look at the life of Jesus and his teachings instead of using one incident to justify our violence towards those who try to harm us. (if that continues, this discussion will go nowhere since we can keep going back and forth using only a small part of scripture to justify our means) (there are also many many verses in the NT where Jesus was NOT violent, like the time when people try to stone Jesus and all he did was running away and hiding, John 8:59)

you mention ’spiritual’ and physical nature… how do you define ’spiritual’?

in scripture… there’s no mentioning of the word ’spiritual’ in the original ancient language of hebrew… there’s no word for ’spiritual’… it is because EVERYTHING is spiritual… in Jewish culture and even in the early Christian church, whatever you did was spiritual… the very act of feeding the hungry was spiritual, the act of commiting adultery was spiritual…

those who impose physical harm on us is also imposing spiritual harm on us…

and yes you can even say a spiritual weapon can be a physical weapon… however as Paul says in 2 Corithians 10, “The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.” meaning it might not be the very weapon we use to fight w/…

Jesus defended the adulterer and no one dared to lift a stone at her. Not because Jesus used violent force and weapons against the crowd but used God’s words that is sharper than a double edged sword.

no it’s not common sense… common sense would’ve been Jesus to defend the woman by violence and force… but instead of using common sense, Christ used the word of God which piered the very heart of the pharasees that they could not impose any harm on the woman.

do i think that by me reading scripture while someone’s attacking my family would save them? maybe… maybe not…

or even putting my body b/w the victim and the attacker would save them? maybe…. maybe not…

but then again do i think by me putting my violent force to impose harm on the attacker would save my family? maybe… maybe not..

i believe that this matter is not black and white… , it’s not non-violence vs. violence… therefore we cannot jump to any conclusions regarding ‘how to handle a situation when…’,

b/c we have NO idea how we would act in those situations b/c we’ve never been in it.

i have mentioned in the previous comments that i’m NOT a pacifist, because in those situations i would physically intervene to stop the attacker… but that scripture and the OT does not give me the right to physically harm the attacker let alone kill him. It also does not give me the right to go to war against the oppressors.

all i can say is that, when faced w/ those horrible situations, i hope to bring glory to God’s name and not shame.

i see no difference between our response to when we’re being persecuted because our faith vs. when others are being persecuted.

There’s a world of difference. I mean, Christ was silent when being accused, and sent the adulteress’s persecutors away… no, He didn’t use violence, but that’s irrelevant; His response was different in each scenario. What we do for ourselves and what we do for others, is different. That’s a major them of the Gospels (we are not to be served, but to serve). This applies to donating money and giving clothing, as much as it does laying down your life for your family, should that opportunity arise.

I’m finding it hard to believe that standing by as the people you are responsible for and accountable to God for are violated, is in any way exemplifying the heart of God.

“Yeah. Beat the crap out of my kid and wife. I’m taking the higher road.” Where is Christ in that? This does not fit into all of Scripture, though it might jive with the odd passage about being meek. We need understand context when dealing with the passages you’re citing.

Jesus saw his people being persecuted b/c of their faith… yet he did not raise his arm against the oppressors, yet he was persecuted along w/ his people…i think that should be our response as witnesses of the persecution.

Yes, Christ suffered as His people suffered, but to say because, “Jesus didn’t liberate the Jews from Roman persecution, so we can’t engage in any kind of violence,” is an argument from silence. Political liberation was not part of Christ’s mandate, or God’s will for Israel at that time. Jesus had a mission and some particular things to teach; this does not preclude us from participating in activities that He did not participate in. Christ didn’t get married, have kids or have a home for that matter; that doesn’t mean we can’t have these things and more. We need to view Christ’s life and message through His mandate, and balance all this with the rest of the NT, and the entire legacy of God’s movement among His people. WWJD can be a flawed modus operandi.

we’re under a new covenant… and Jesus commands us to love… he calls us to be poor, to be meek, to thirst for righteousness and to be peace makers…

I agree.

if Jesus justified violence, then i will justify it. But he never taught us to raise our arms against one another… but to forgive one another.

Actions speak louder than words. Christ was violent. That would seem to be a kind of justification, no?

This does not mean that we allow this world to do whatever it pleases, but to fight against evil w/ good. ‘Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good’ (Romans 12:21)

This is begging the question; the assumption being made here is that all violence is actually, in every situation, bad. If this is true, then Christ’s clearing of the temple is sin – is this a conclusion you’re comfortable with?

what kind of sword are we to carry? (i believe it’s the one that is sharper than the “double edged sword”) what kind of force are we to use to take back or establish the kingdom? (i believe it’s the force that is “good”, that comes from God)

Exactly. We do not build God’s kingdom with force. This is clear. The focus of our struggle is against unseen powers, absolutely.

For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete. “

Again, this is all a matter of context. I do not believe this passage is not speaking about “general behaviour,” but is speaking about the primary battle with which we are to concern ourselves – the Spiritual. We do not build God’s kingdom with physical violence. But I’ll restate: this passage does not preclude the use of force where a physical struggle may arise.

It’s just common sense: you use spiritual weapons against a spiritual enemy; use physical ones against a physical enemy. We have the great advantage that we can also use spiritual weapons against a physical enemy, thank God for that. Our goal is to be meek and restrained, but this does not preclude force in 100% of all possible situations. I’m arguing that there is compatiblism here, not exclusion.

i see no difference between our response to when we’re being persecuted because our faith vs. when others are being persecuted.

Jesus saw his people being persecuted b/c of their faith… yet he did not raise his arm against the oppressors, yet he was persecuted along w/ his people…i think that should be our response as witnesses of the persecution.

one thing i like to mention is who is our mediator?

in the OT it was moses, joshua, the judges, David and the righteous kings and the prophets…

God spoke to Israel through the mediator during the time… specifically ordering them to carry out His commands ie. kill the nations around them (b/c they had defiled themselves by worshiping idols, Lev. 18:21), and also to worship Him w/ everything they had.

But when Jesus came, died and was ressurected… he now is the ONLY way to God. Which God has appointed him not only our mediator but also our Lord. As we focus on this… we follow Christ teachings and his examples… which is to turn the other cheek and to love our enemies…

we’re under a new covenant… and Jesus commands us to love… he calls us to be poor, to be meek, to thirst for righteousness and to be peace makers…

if Jesus justified violence, then i will justify it. But he never taught us to raise our arms against one another… but to forgive one another. This does not mean that we allow this world to do whatever it pleases, but to fight against evil w/ good. ‘Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good’ (Romans 12:21)

what kind of sword are we to carry? (i believe it’s the one that is sharper than the “double edged sword”) what kind of force are we to use to take back or establish the kingdom? (i believe it’s the force that is “good”, that comes from God)

as i mentioned before, i do believe in punishment and excommunication… but it needs to be done in the light for the person to be reconciled… but to bring an end to the oppressors and tyrants w/ a violent force will only contribute to the never ending circle of violence…

i think that Paul sums it up pretty well in terms of how things ought to be carried out and will be done in terms of war, violence, and punishment.

2 Corinthians 10:1-6

” By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” when away! I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete. “

Again, I think a distinction can be made between what our response is to be when we are being persecuted (especially because of the faith) vs what our response is when others are being persecuted.

The focus of the passage you cited, insofar as it relates to violence, is what our response is to be when we are being mistreated. I believe it is an altogether different thing when we witness persecution, and have means with which to administer God’s grace to the victim.

Again, Christ commanded that His disciples carry sword; Christ used force to preserve the sanctity of the temple; Christ said that violent men take the kingdom by force*. Violence has a place that is parallel to meekness; I do not think the two are always in conflict with each other. Neither do I think loving an enemy and punishing him contradict.

*Matt 11:12 has two possible interpretations; either that the Pharisees are seeking to violently tear-away at God’s kingdom, or that people get into the kingdom by almost “violent” vigor and persistence. I think both are valid.

Sorry for joining the discussion late, I must admit that I have not read ALL of the posts, and discussion. That being said, I will refer back to Ben’s original post.

The pacifist would argue (and as it seems james and kelly have argued) that there seems to be incongruence between that which Samuel is saying, and the words of Christ. Samuel is describing a dashing young man, who speaks well and has many things going for him. While in the sermon on the mount, Jesus describes an entirely different picture of what it is like to experience the blessings of the Lord. As we see in the beatitudes, Jesus seems to take conventional wisdom about might and power and turn it upside down.

3″Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11″Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Samuel describes this individual’s blessing by his might. The pacifist would argue that Jesus positions blessing as the abandonment of might, no?

My only response is this: you are right. We depend on God for everything. We include Him in everything. We seek to honour and submit to Him in everything. What the Scriptures also teach, not in contradiction but as a parallel truth, is that we are supposed to be responsible, pull our own weight, and apply ourselves to those tasks which we have been made stewards of.

It is not only good, but right, that we have employment and pay bills. It is right that we plan for the future. It is right that we engage in all the activities of this planet insofar as they are not inherently sinful.

God expects us both to be and to do. Those who love Him obey His commands – faith is seen in action.

So do I rely on God for every cent I need? Yes. Does the very strength and ability I have come from Him? Yes. Do I hang on Him for each passing breath? Yes. But it is equally true that I have, of my own volition and ability, gone out and fulfilled my responsibility by earning income.

I have done it, God has done it, and the two are the same and separate. It is not an either/or but a both/and; there is no exclusivity here.

God places us in situations so that we might serve and grow; we find ourselves where we are for a reason. As far as violence is concerned, we can take this one of two ways: God places us in a conflict to see if we will or if we will not respond. Perhaps we can extend the verse this way:

“I was hungry and you did not feed me. I was naked and you did not clothe me. I got the ?#!@ kicked out of me and you stood by and did nothing.”

We give food to the hungry. Clothes to the naked. I believe too we can lend rescue to the oppressed, and that God is pleased to use His children in this way – He was in the Old Covenant and I don’t think the New Covenant has obliterated this fact.

While all things depend on God, so as far as it depends on me, should a situation present itself that requires the fierce violence and strength of our Warrior King, I will not hedge it in.

Thanks so much for your thoughts! They’re most welcome.

Dependence on God for all things is common throughout the old and new testament.

Matthew 6
25″Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?”

In Exodus the Israelites are completely and literally dependent on God for direction and food as they travel through the desert.

Matthew 3 (regarding John the Baptist)
4John’s clothes were made of camel’s hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.

If we can’t even provide food and clothes for ourselves, how are we to provide effective protection against harm or even trust in our own wisdom in order to decide when or when not to take another person’s life?

You ask why we apply different criteria to providing safety and protection? I say let’s not. Let them all come from God. Including our wisdom.

23 King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth. 24 The whole world sought audience with Solomon to hear the wisdom God had put in his heart.

Here is a beautiful passage about wisdom from Job 28 in the midst of his desperation:

12 “But where can wisdom be found?
Where does understanding dwell?

13 Man does not comprehend its worth;
it cannot be found in the land of the living.

skip ahead a little…
21 It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing,
concealed even from the birds of the air.

22 Destruction [c] and Death say,
‘Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.’

23 God understands the way to it
and he alone knows where it dwells,

24 for he views the ends of the earth
and sees everything under the heavens.

25 When he established the force of the wind
and measured out the waters,

26 when he made a decree for the rain
and a path for the thunderstorm,

27 then he looked at wisdom and appraised it;
he confirmed it and tested it.

28 And he said to man,
‘The fear of the Lord—that is wisdom,
and to shun evil is understanding.’ ”

This is how Job chose to struggle with his spiritual AND physical difficulties (which were not separate). Here is where his attention was directed entirely. If he had sought out retribution for the wrong done to him, wouldn’t his focus have been diverted and at odds with the intimate relationship with God he was seeking? Comfort didn’t lie in payback or protection, it was with God alone.

Thanks for entertaining this discussion, I’m actually learning quite a bit from it. Regardless if we ever come to the same conclusions, I’m interested to be experiencing a different perspective. It throws some of my weak spots into vivid relief which I appreciate.